Crafting Systems: Work Versus Reward

In any decent behavioral system (whether in a game or otherwise), the value of the reward is proportionally equal or greater than the estimated cost of the work involved in attaining that reward. Most game developers utilize this principle, although many don't seem to comprehend the intricacies of it so much as intuit them.

So then, here it is. How do we quantify the values of work and reward? Is there even a way to assign value to such subjective qualifiers? Is it perhaps possible to figure out an average acceptable range of quantified values for such things?

I think it is. By analyzing on a statistical level players' reactions to crafting systems in various MMORPGs, it should be possible to design a crafting system that most closely follows the ideal work/reward scheme.

So then, the purpose of this thread is to collectively present data on existing MMORPG crafting systems. Ideally, we would have total access to the opinions of every person involved with crafting in every MMORPG, but that is clearly impossible. What we'll need to do is carefully sift through the opinions of players of various games. Any ideas on how to accomplish this task are most welcome.

Good thread. As with the other thread in the design forum, I want to get into some pretty good detail about this later on but for now it seems to me that a large number of folks feel that the SWG crafting system has been far superior to other games crafting systems. So in line with your interest to collectively present data on existing MMORPG crafting systems, I ask the question what exactly made SWGs system so special in your opinions?

This is an extremely hard question to answer.

I'll answer the easier one now and try and type up something for the harder one. SWG crafting was so wonderful because it gave you so much flexibility. If you didn't want to put in alot of work and just make generic stuff to grind with, you could use the cheap stuff that wasn't great. but if you were making something really good that you knew would be valuable to someone, you took your time in building it. You found the best materials you could, you collected as much as you could. then you slowly built it.

I think the reason why it was so nice is you chose how much work you put into it. If you didn't want to work very hard and didn't care about cheap stuff you could toss later, you could do that. If you were crafting for a profit, you took your time and you made more money. Also the fact that everyone couldn't be the same just because they were a crafter. You had to do more then just hit a few buttons together to make an item, you actually had to think some. There were many times I saw 2 people with the same skills make the same item. One would be fantastic and everyone would want it, the other would be junk.

I think that's the biggest thing about he SWG, it made crafters mean something. It wasn't just click a few times here and there, they actually had to think.

You guys are a lot more advanced than moi in crafting!! My 2cp is hardly worth it, I'm sure, but:

The most fun I had was in EQ when I teamed up with someone else. I took up tailoring and made those pieces while he did blacksmithing. We did really well selling the products (yes, this was a century ago!) and we had a lot of orders.

On the other hand, I liked the concept behind Vanguard's where you harvested things and sometimes needed help getting them. What I don't like is the when things get really complex and you run out of room to store items/supplies. I didn't like EQ2 with all the damage you would take if you goofed up something. I would rather see an end product that's not pristine or something. Lower grade.

I'd love to get another tailor going, but so far, I haven't found a system I like, so...I explore and solo a lot. Or...do other stuff elsewhere...

Sorry for not posting for a day, but I was out of town for an interview.

Here's my take on Star Wars: Galaxies's crafting system and why it was great:

First, no two items were perfectly alike. Even if several crafters capped one of an item's stats at its highest value, the other values varied depending on what resources went into it and what else the crafter chose to experiment on.

Second, you don't have to use the exact same resources to craft an item every time. Some recipes allowed for variation; for example, a recipe might require 50 units of Diatum Copper, but another recipe could only require 50 units of Metal. While the first recipe would only take Diatum Copper in that slot, the second recipe could take any kind of Metal.

Third, it was possible to craft while offline. If you created a Manufacturing Schematic of an item and had a sufficient number of resources, you could plug all that into a factory and let it cook while you did other things. In this way it was possible to be producing a large number items for sale, allowing for mass produced items as well as special orders.

Fourth, if you were good enough, people came back to you and sang your praises. On my server, Chilastra, everyone who did any kind of combat knew the name Stettin - he was a famously good weaponsmith who produced excellent weapons in a short amount of time for reasonable prices. This kind of "hero crafter" status was common to all servers that I played on; there was a handful of crafters that everyone knew to go to for the best deals. This was made possible by the unique setup of the crafting mechanics.

Finally, you didn't have to be a hardcore player to enjoy crafting. If you didn't want to make the ultimate best plasma flamethrower to compete with Crafter X's goods, you didn't have to. You could casually craft things for your friends or guildmates. Some of these things would naturally be lower quality, but you had that option.

If I had to use two words to describe the SWG crafting system, I'd say it was versatile and very freeform. I'd like to see that strategy taken with future MMORPG crafting systems.

Hi all,

imho you have to ask the question diffrent. Im playing now MMORPG since 1999, what I found out is that the most memorable games were where you were remembered by how you played your charakter (not in a rpg aspect, but how skilled you played your class). Do what others of the same class and lvl could not.

In some games you were flexible enough to give you enough freedom to shine by how you use your skills (i still remember people from EQ that impressed me how they could play their class).

The same is for crafting. If you cant give crafter the freedom to be unique, you will just have a boring massproduction. WoW was like that, everybody could pick up some crafting skill and master it, in the end everybody could do the same.

SWG and Earth & Beyond had the only crafting systems (of all the MMORPG i played) that let you do something other crafter could not.

To get acknowledgment to be unique that is what makes a great crafting system in my eyes.

temp

P.S. im german so my spelling is not the best, correct me and get doomed with mass disconnects on your guildraids

ROFL!!

Your english is just fine and easy to understand, but that does explain a lot, and thanks! heheee...

It sounds even funny when I read it now. I should start to write my replys first in word and overwork it few times befor i post.

naw....be spontaneous. It will be more from your heart, and we understand you just fine. If we don't, we'll ask!

On the topic of crafting... I think that if you thing of it as work vs reward then you get a very clean cut outline of what is there to make and how to make it. That is why I feel that crafting needs a bit of tweaking and along with it itemization. I say this by applying this factor to it. People want to be on top sure, but with being on top comes the price that one day the top will change and then the race to be on top begins. Of course that also assumes that itemization relegates the top spot in a game. A solution is that in a work vs reward system the work should always relate to reward in that more work equals more reward.

However, that does not mean that the work is simply gather materials, train skill, find recipe. Work needs to be innovation and innovation leading to the best product possible. But how do you ask is innovation possible in a game where items are put inside a box? Easy, you make items that are found around the world inspectable for crafting technique. Now you may ask how does that induce innovation? Well, as a crafter you may have mastered your age, species, or cultures way of crafting items. That does not however limit you to finding unqiue crafting forms and or crafting types that allow special bonuses unique to that culture, time period, or race.

An example of this can be shaped as such. You are human and make a stock shortsword. Traveling around the world you slay many monsters with your sword. On your travels you find a Ancient Elven Stock Shortsword. Inspecting it you find it has been crafting in such a way to reduce its weight and increase its strength at the point. You now understand the forging pattern for that blade. (Of course it would be a bit more than just that.) You can of course use that ancient blade and its powers, but now you also know the way it was crafted and can craft weapons with an Ancient Elven twist on it. Its unique in that it is something the player must think of to do. When you look at a weapon you must decide if it is worth inspecting it or not.

This is just an example of something that innovation can lead to better rewards for those who work outside the box of just finding materials and working towards a certain design. Innovation in the crafting aspect of a game is something that definitly can change how it works for the better. So I am all for Work Vs. Reward as long as the work is not dull and dry like just gathering materials and recipes and skill level. Make the crafter think a bit!

Yet another text block complete.....