Dungeon Design

Let us discuss Dungeons, shall we? And I am not talking about raids or anything like that, but just regular group-based dungeons. Keep in mind that I will primarily use references from World of Warcraft as I feel that is pretty much the "industry standard" in terms of the overall quality a game has (like the game or not, it was made with quality and polish, and all future MMOs will be reviewed with WoW in mind).

I will begin with some basics that I feel are good things, or things dungeons should have:

• Dungeons need to have a 'feel' to them. This is hard to quantify in terms of anything but an experience factor. Going into Deadmines or Wailing Caves or even Stratholme in WoW... these dungeons have a 'feel' to them. They are places you don't mind running 10-15 times if need be. Compare this to some of the Burning Crusade instances like Hellfire Ramparts or Arcatraz, instances where you want to go in there and just get your quests done. When I had a Level 60 in BWL gear, I still took the time to go back to Strat with newer guildmates who wanted a specific item just because it was fun.
• There should be an emphasis on teamwork and fun. Teamwork should be tested in boss encounters primarily, but there has to be an overall fun factor for going into the dungeon. Afterall, if you can't run into there with a group and have a blast, why go in there? I look at it this way: this is content your designers are spending time on, we all want to see it get used!
• Scripted Events are a good thing! The Temple Event in Zul'Farrak (WoW) comes to mind primarily here. Gotta love holding off wave after wave of mobs. Even if they are weak and easy to kill it's memorable and fun, two factors that help ADD to a dungeons flavor and a players experience.
• Scripted Fights are good too. Mr. Smite in Deadmines immediately comes to mind here. While not a 'major' battle, its fun and provides a nice interlude to the rest of the dungeon.

Here are a few things that I really hate about dungeons and thus, they are things I believe dungeons should not have:

• Dungeons should not have a bunch of mini-bosses that drop crap loot. Scholomance, I am looking at you. The 6 mini-bosses who are at the end of the dungeon right before Darkmaster Gamling are the most annoying thing about that instance and killed it for me. Maybe four of these rooms could have just been covered in random enemies and only 2 minibosses with decent loot would have been a better way to go, I don't know, all I can say is I did not like that dungeon set-up and I know a lot of people who hated it as well.
• Dungeons should not be 'winged'. Scarlet Monastary worked. Unfortunately the winged-instance designed failed pretty hard with a lot of the BC dungeons. Blizzard forgot about what worked with SM and then decided to not go with it in BC. You see, SM works because each wing takes 30-45m with a properly set-up party and maybe an hour with a party that's not so well designed. You can even do SM-Graveyard runs in 20m if need-be. There are so many options. Cathedral runs can be full-clears or they can be runs to hit up the bosses and then rinse/repeat. This worked. Burning Crusade failed in instance design because while Blizzard may have intended for these dungeons to be '45m-1h' in length, they take much, much longer and feel like more of a grind. SM can be smashed through with an equal-level group. Something like Hellfire Ramparts or Underbog feels like a chore with an equal-level group. Let's explore that more in depth below:
• Dungeons should NOT require obscene amounts of Crowd Control. If 2 positions in your 5 or 6-man group require a class that can CC, that isn't a good dungeon to me. A dungeon can be hard without grouping 7 or 8 mobs in each pull to require a metric crapton of CC. Numerous games mistake challenge with either: Lets have the mobs hit for a bunch! -or- Lets put 10 elites in this pull!

Now that I've given my general thoughts on those matters, here are a few of the worst dungeons I've played:

• Uldaman (WoW) - Really, the dungeon isn't bad except for the fact that your group is normally avg of level 43 or 44 because the majority of the content is 45 to 46. The fun surprise here is when you come up to the final boss who is level FIFTY and is a party-destroyer. I can forgive Vaelastrasz in BWL for being a pain, that's a raid dungeon, but putting such an encounter in a leveling dungeon isn't something that provokes good feelings in the playerbase.
• Gnomeregan and Blackrock Depths (WoW) - So, so, so, so, sooooooooo very long. Really there is no excuse to have dungeons that last for over TWO HOURS. They are dungeons, not raids.
• Sadly, any dungeon in Vanguard - I found a lot of them to be bland. Very few felt they had story or meaning behind them other than them being there. I feel a dungeon having a purpose in an overall story or have some lore behind it really helps add to the 'feel' of the dungeon.

And here are a couple of dungeons that I did enjoy:

• Jintha'alor (WoW) - This is an outdoor dungeon in WoW in the Hinterlands, but I feel it is one of the best outdoor areas in WoW. It has a lot of quests (especially if you are Horde), and it's huge. There can be a lot of groups running around but you can still find mobs to kill for exp or to meet your quest requirements. Also, the quests really do a lot to help add to the lore for the dungeon.
• Undead Stratholme (WoW) - The best 'end-game' (@60) dungeon in WoW, Stratholme never got old or boring, and it had a lot of flavor. To the burning houses in the landscape to the putrid, undead nature of the area, it was a marvel of dungeon design in WoW.

So there is my wall of text. I can't wait to get into some nice discussions with folks on this topic. I love dungeon-crawling in MMOs.

I agree with a lot of what you said even though I have no experience in the WoW dungeons.

One thing I will say is that the time for a dungeon depends on the dungeon itself. I remember spending all day...about 12 hours...on a single dungeon in EQ because it was that fun. No one complained about the time...in fact I dont think most of us realized how long it took. That was one of the best times I had in EQ...The Tower of Frozen Shadows. Gotta love breaking up zombie weddings.

My favorite Dungeons/zones in EQ had to be...

Tower of Frozen Shadows
City of Mist
Greggs End
The Hole

I am sure I will think of others but those are the ones I remember most.

Originally Posted by Kanjien

I agree with a lot of what you said even though I have no experience in the WoW dungeons.

One thing I will say is that the time for a dungeon depends on the dungeon itself. I remember spending all day...about 12 hours...on a single dungeon in EQ because it was that fun. No one complained about the time...in fact I dont think most of us realized how long it took. That was one of the best times I had in EQ...The Tower of Frozen Shadows. Gotta love breaking up zombie weddings.

My favorite Dungeons/zones in EQ had to be...

Tower of Frozen Shadows
City of Mist
Greggs End
The Hole

I am sure I will think of others but those are the ones I remember most.

That's a good point about time, and I thik that fits in with outdoorsy dungeons much better than instances, especialy if you can compete with other groups for faster mob kills and such, it does help add some to the overall game experience.

Originally Posted by Kanjien

I agree with a lot of what you said even though I have no experience in the WoW dungeons.

One thing I will say is that the time for a dungeon depends on the dungeon itself. I remember spending all day...about 12 hours...on a single dungeon in EQ because it was that fun. No one complained about the time...in fact I dont think most of us realized how long it took. That was one of the best times I had in EQ...The Tower of Frozen Shadows. Gotta love breaking up zombie weddings.

My favorite Dungeons/zones in EQ had to be...

Tower of Frozen Shadows
City of Mist
Greggs End
The Hole

I am sure I will think of others but those are the ones I remember most.

TOFS was my favorite dungeon ever, in any game. It was just so much fun, and you had to be on your guard as you worked your way up to the top. Awesome design, fun concept and mobs, and great itemization. Add to that the fact that it seemed to be a mostly well-kept secret and you had the recipe for my favorite place to crawl.

TOFS was my favorite dungeon ever, in any game. It was just so much fun, and you had to be on your guard as you worked your way up to the top. Awesome design, fun concept and mobs, and great itemization. Add to that the fact that it seemed to be a mostly well-kept secret and you had the recipe for my favorite place to crawl.

Oh, now here is another good point.

"Secrets"

Now I like what the Mythic people are doing in Warhammer Online with the aspect of "Lairs". Having secret locations that people can discover via exploration is a fantastic concept, and a concept I truly hope developers begin to put forth into future games.

I know everyone isn't an explorer, but it does add a whole new element to the game for people who are explorers.

Which also goes along with my idea with interactive lore. ie read the actual lore, and secrets will be found

Originally Posted by Laethyn

Which also goes along with my idea with interactive lore. ie read the actual lore, and secrets will be found

Or include things that aren't explicitely referenced in the lore but can help add flavor to it. Yeah, I can agree with that.

Dont forget not every Dungeon has to be a hole into something or underground of any sort. Cities, Camps, battlefields, ... are not used much for dungeon situation.

I did not like the WoW dungeons as the instancing took a lot of the MM out of MMORPG, also that you have to move all the time was a bit anoying. When you go into a dungeon to make experiance it should be possible to stay at a spot and pull things to you. IMHO it helps a lot with socializing.

The best Dungeons were those were you hade intensive fights but also save spots to sit talk rebuff and go back into action. Dungeons that felt "the deeper you go the tuffer it gets". I also liked the corps recovery aspect as it helps to make friendship with people who were helping you, or you were helping somebody else to get them back.

My strongest Memories are with Blackburrow and Highkeep Hold. Maybe because they have been my first dungeons or maybe because people played MMORPGs diffrent at that time.

City of Mist still is one of my fav's!! The black golems that spawn, and it's a random number, totally got my attention! You had to be on your toes to do that area, which made it a challange and fun.

Doing CR's there were fun, too! hehe.....Mage CH was priceless then, too! And I still love the concept of different classes being known for their different abilities. This dilution of making them all so similar that the only definition is the class name and certain abilities (like some can hack'n'slash while others are arcane classes). PoP killed specialization for some classes. Hated that!

Oh well....there can only be one EQ! Maybe someday....Vanguard tried.

LOL CoM, still remember to /duell and shoot my whole group up the walls so we dont have to fight all the way.